Once...

....there were two students of animation at the University of Essen called Holger and Dietmar. They were taught by a certain Hans Bacher who one day approached them – as if it was the most normal thing in the world – with the words: „You two should make a show reel and shop it around in London“

In 1990, London was the place where „it happened“. Disney made „Treasure of the Lamp“. Universal was working on „American Tail“ and then there was Pizzazz, Felix Films, Oscar Grillo's Klacto and many others in the commercial business.

Well, in proper „deutscher Arbeitseinstellung“ Holger and I went to work. Today you would copy your portfolio on a DvD, in 1990 we cut and assembled everything on 16 mm film. After that, we needed to pay a laboratory to transfer the film to a U-matic tape. I remember this cost being so high, that we only got one copy.

The next step in „deutscher Gründlichkeit“ was to phone the different studios in London to make appointments, only to find out that there was a much more relaxed atmosphere there than with german studios. Basically we were told to just „knock on the door“ when we were in London.

In 1990, this worked not only for the small studios that did commercials, but also for the feature film companies. Already on our first day we had appointments at Disney („Sorry guys, we are closing the studio here“) and Dick Purdom. They had a job that they would offer to one of us, all we had to do is duel ourselves outside for it. Oscar Grillo and Eric Goldberg advised us to show our stuff to Dick Williams. Williams wasn't officially hiring, but they had heard that he would be looking for people soon. Through Hans Bacher we were familiar with Williams' work and we had seen several inspiring documentaries, one of them about his masterpiece „The Thief and the Cobbler“ - but while dreaming of working in London was in order, dreaming of ever working on the „Thief“ seemed outrageous.

We showed our tape at Universal and got an offer to start as inbetweeners on „American Tail“ for the astronomical sum of 250 pounds per week. Could it get any better? We were so upbeat about the opportunity to work in „proper“ animation that we decided to go for broke. We took the tube to Camden Town and walked up to the famous building on Royal College Street – No. 138. Our flamboyant ringing of the doorbell produced a slightly irritated Ian Cook, Williams' production coordinator, who greeted us with a brief „Mr. Williams does not meet any applicants“. We were further told, that we could leave our tape in the studio, with no promise that Mr. Williams would actually take a look at it. „Almost no chance“ seemed better than „no chance“, so we handed our tape over. After the door closed, we realized that we had in fact given away our one and only tape and we were now stuck with 2 days in London and nothing to show if we wanted to apply elsewhere. Bit of a bummer.

I don't remember how we killed the next days, waiting for the flight back, but at least we tried and phoned 138 times and again to see if there was any feedback from the maestro. Alas, it was the answering machine every time and finally it was Friday, our plane was scheduled to leave in a few hours and we decided to try and enter the lion's den once more to at least retrieve our precious tape. Once again our not-so-flamboyant ringing of the doorbell was answered by Ian Cook and before we were finished uttering some nonsense about planes and flights and our only tape, Ian Cook said the words I shall never forget: „Mr Williams wants to see you“.

To sum up the next 30 minutes: heartbeat at 120, walking on clouds, holy choirs singing, cherubs blowing trumpets, the world seen through a soft focus lens, a grin on the face like an idiot.

Somewhere in there we met Dick and Roy and got a job as assistant animators „starting tomorrow if you want“. Oh boy, did we want to – but the small issue of having to break this news to my newly-wed wife and arranging things at the university and around the house delayed our start a little bit.

Later Hans Bacher told us that Dick had called him up to ask if he could recommend anybody else. Hans knew 2 other German guys from Muenster, Andreas Wessell-Therhorn and Michael Schlingmann. They also went to London to see Williams, were hired and we all started to work on the Thief on March 5^th, 1990. Andreas and Holger entered the hallowed halls of 138 to work there and Michael and I were among the first to occupy desks in „The Forum“. And the rest is...as they say...history. On which we now look back, 20 years later.

On Monday the 27th of April, the Marc Davis lecture on Animation took place at the Academy headquarters in Los Angeles.It turned out to be the most popular animation evening so far and really was a whos who of the industry.Concluding the over 3 hour long program of lectures, film clips and panels was a video message from Dick Williams.First almost timid and humble, he said he wished he could have been at the actual event. Starting to talk about Milt Kahl though, he quickly showed his usual passion . He acknowledged that knowing Milt and having been able to call him from time to time, was a highlight of his life.
Apparently, he always tried to make the never humble Milt admit to being the World's greatest animator.Milt kinda grumbled and didn't commit.Dick recalled the great friendship between Milt and Marc Davis, a kind of admiration society for two.Once they had an argument and Milt shouted after Marc... you cant even draw your own A$%. Marc returned to Milt's office a little later with a giant drawing of exactly that.On one occasion, Dick showed some 20 minutes of Thief footage at the Lucas ranch and had invited Milt to come along. After the screening, some Lucas people excitedly inquired about who had made this and were told that it was Dick's work. They proclaimed him to be the World's greatest animator and Dick turned to Milt and said " No, that is the World's greatest animator" to which Milt kinda nodded. Dick got his admittance of greatness finally when he talked to Milt in '87 and finally made him say that he indeed was the best animator.Two days later, he passed away. Dick freely admitted crying a lot and he said it was especially sad when he realized he cried over the fact that he would no longer be able to call the great man and chat.
It was a fitting and heartfelt tribute from one artist to another. A perfect ending to that evening and a chance for us to see Dick, albeit on video, and be part of this celebration.

1975 Crew picture update

I just want to point everybody again to Michael Sporn's post about the same crew picture I posted about last week. At his blog a lot of interesting comments keep on pouring in. Click LINK

Thief gets a new cloak out of the trash

Last weekend I received this email:

Hey guys,
I've been a dedicated follower of your blog since I first read about it on Michael Sporn's site and I was curious about who animated the scene where the Thief pulls a cloak out of the trash after he crash lands during the flying sequence. I thought maybe you'd get to this scene as you were going through the Thief on the mountain scenes but then you got off the scene breakdowns so I decided to bother you about it in an email. I think this may be my favorite piece of animation in the film because of it's reality. The Thief feels completely alive with all the beautiful weight shifts and the way he mulls through the trash, it's all so wonderfully observed. The part where he wiggles into his cloak reminds me a lot of Milt Kahl's animation of Sluefoot Sue putting on her dress in Pecos Bill. Any information you have would be appreciated.
Thanks for keeping up the blog!
-Aaron SorensonThanks for the question Aaron! I've always admired this scene. Neil Boyle animated it. The need for the scene came up when Dick finalized his intentions about the continuity of events and how to link from scenes where the Thief's cloak was torn to shreds and later scenes where his cloak was intact again. This was during the 1990-92 time and it's one of the scenes that were not based on previous Ken Harris animation.
As you can see the screengrab is kind of blurry. This scene was never part of any of the official releases. One of many reasons why we should hope for an official DVD that contains all these lost treasures. Remember to vote in the poll at the top right corner...

Nasrudin in the Papers

Matt Jones just sent these scans:

Babbitt and Harris

From Mark Mayerson's blog: (LINK for full post)
He writes: "Børge Ring sent me this anecdote about Art Babbitt being something of an animation snob.

First time Babbitt came to London Dick Williams picked him up at the airport. On the way to town Dick said joyfully proud: "We've got Ken Harris." Babbitt frowned. "But eh: Isn't that somebody from Warner Brothers and all that?"Dick laughed and said: "I'll show you tomorrow."Next morning he took Art to the movieola and ran a string of Ken's scenes of the Thief. Babbitt was baffled. "Well I'll be damned." He and Ken Harris became great friends at Dick's formidable small studio..."

Random Thoughts

Before we take a break from posting, I thought I'd post some random ramblings and images.
I have now been in the animation industry for 18 years and i can honestly say that none of this may have ever happened without Dick Williams and 'the Thief'. When Dick took us four Germans on, we had very limited experience. Holger and Dietmar had studied animation in college and Michael and I were entirely self taught. It takes people like Dick Williams to see the potential and most of all, be willing to take a chance. We all worked very, very hard on the movie and I think, our work ethic today is firmly rooted in what we learned in those first 2 years.
My very first assignment were inbetweens for Neil Boyle, a scene where the Thief walks on stilts while arrows whiz all around him. Was I lucky to work with someone so patient and knowledgeable right at the start. He sent me back several times to redo what I thought were perfectly fine inbetweens, my eye not trained yet to see the slight imperfections, changes in angles and volumes, but after redoing the drawings a few times and thinking all the time that I'd be fired by the end of the week, I got it. Thanks, Neil.
This industry really lives on through artists who are willing to share what they know and mentor. I have worked with good and ,well, not so great mentors over the years.The best, I found, were the ones to freely point out one's mistakes without putting you down, to inspire you to try your own ideas. Dick Williams is certainly someone who always put the work in front of ego, and I think thats what inspired the fierce loyalty we all felt on the picture.Eric Goldberg is another example of the ideal mentor, freakishly talented enough to warrant star behaviour, yet never displaying any, instead freely sharing his knowledge...to paraphrase Dolli Levy...knowledge is, pardon the expression, like manure. its no good unless its shared and allows young things to grow. While no young thing anymore myself, I will always be deeply grateful to Dick Williams for giving us the initial chance to enter this crazy business.




A crowd scene featuring a guest appearance by Barbra Streisand. I think, Gary Dunn did a few characters too. When we showed the scene to Dick, we glowed with pride when he said: Well done! There was no w@nking around on this.




One of Dick's pet peeves. He thought, we shouldn't listen to music while working. We did, anyway. We couldn't all bring in a trumpet to play out loud.

Thief climbs up Witch Mountain, Part 5

This is the concluding post for the climbing scenes in sequence 10.3. I will pick it up sometime soon with the remaining scenes of the sequence, which I also worked on, where the Thief is flying.

This scene was not based on anything Ken had done and it didn't have a scene number. It had a name: Hunter. 9-04 feet. I worked on it from June 13 to 16, 1991.
Dick did 2 or 3 drawings, which meant that this scene was pretty much done. Recently I listened to part 1 of Eric Goldberg's interview on Animation Podcast (LINK). He did a very good impression of Ken Harris, with Ken being all modest about his animation and saying that Dick did all the drawing work. Dick had the highest regard for Ken's abilities. It was a pretty unique working relationship with Dick as Ken's boss and student at the same time. He did poses for him before Ken started his scenes and refined the animation after Ken was done.

seq. 10.3/ sc.9x, by Dick/Ken

seq. 10.3/ sc.10x, by Dick/Ken, redo coat by Holger
These scenes had been finished in color and had been on film for years. It's an hommage to Bill Tytla's work with the Devil from Fantasia, even using the same music. I always loved this part of the film and was thrilled that I could be involved a little when I was assigned to add wind animation to the coat, as an overlay to the original cels. It's also interesting how much Dick sometimes disregarded continuity, more thinking about what was right for the scene. If it would work and nobody noticed it was good. Do I care that the palm trees from the previous scenes disappeared, or that the angles of the rock changed? No, I don't. I like the hightened drama that Dick created by these choices.
I remember some Ken linetests that Dick decided not to use, where the Thief is elaborately sticking the palm leaves into his coat sleaves. I think all that had been part of sc. 5x.


I also got to do this longshot, which hooks up directly to the next scene 11x, where the Thief is flapping his wings, trying to fly, but I save that and the following scenes for another post. I think we need to post s.th. else for a while. All the recent images use the same set of colors and maybe you had to look closely to realize that this was a new post.

Thief climbs up Witch Mountain, Part 4

In my notes I found that Roger Waters was at the studio on one day while I was working on these scenes. I remember peeking over the desks when he was talking to Dick. I think they were discussing him doing some music for the film, but that never happened. Paul McCartney and George Martin were also visiting at another time, talking about writing the music, but that also fell through.

seq.10.3/sc.2x, 26-02 feet, I worked on it May 13 - 31, 1991Here is a rough sketch Dick did for this scene while he was explaining to me what he wanted. Most of this scene was based on Ken's work, but Dick asked me to add some business with the Thief feeling dizzy after getting up and almost falling off. Dick wanted to know the German translation for the word "dizzy". I wrote it down for him in the top right corner: "schwindelig".I also did the BG layout drawing, referencing an Errol BG for 10.3/5x (see below), the hand just at a slightly different angle. I think Margaret Grieve animated the palm leaves moving in the wind. On this scene and on the scenes that followed Hilary Denny, who assisted me on this sequence animated the flies. I was really happy about this as it allowed me to start on another scene instead of going back in to work on flies. Up to that point I had not only animated flies for my own scenes, but also for a lot of Dick's scenes. I think Hilary adopted my color coded method (see Sept. 5 post). Dick and Neil used another approach when they animated flies. They did them all at once in graphite and they didn't worry too much about following through on the individual flies as long as the overall shape was moving properly. We all used the tip of the heart shape to help with the direction they were flying in.


seq.10.3/sc.3x, 4-05 feet, I worked on this June 1 and 3, 1991These were pretty much just 3 keys with lots of inbetweens. Apparently I did the layout, too. I probably just xeroxed the Ruby Idol from another scene.


I'm not sure about the scene number for this one. I think I did a drawing of the Thief for a held cel.
In connection with this sequence I have s.th. from an earlier post:
"Roy later told me about times when Ken Harris was about to arrive for his seasonal stay in London and having been busy on commercials Dick sometimes had not prepared any work for him. In a hurry they would whip out BG and character layouts for the Thief character. Dick would just say "Let's make him climb up the mountain..." and that would keep Ken busy for a while." (see also this LINK)


seq.10.3/sc5x Redo 23-10 feet
This scene was considered a redo which meant that the footage could not be counted towards our weekly studio quota as it had been counted already. This reminds me of our production coordinator Ian Cook and how he would come by every week and ask "What is your footage?". This might only mean s.th. to my former colleagues, but the way he said this every week was funny. Ian has a very dry sense of humor. Dick had done this scene years earlier working over Ken's roughs and it had been painted and filmed, but now Dick wanted wind moving through the coat. So I took his drawings and animated the coat as overlays that were carefully matched to the existing cels.

Thief climbs up Witch Mountain, Part 1

I'm always very happy when some of my former Thief colleagues write here on the blog about their work on the film. I can't think of anything else to write about at the moment, so I thought I might as well write a bit about some scenes that I worked on. I recently found some notes I took at the time to keep tabs of the work I was doing. The scene number for this scene was seq10.1/sc.4x, the scene length 10 feet and 14 frames and I started working on it on March 20, 1991. The scene starts close on the Thief and then pulls back to reveal the Ruby Idol in the distance. I worked over Ken's original animation. Dick wanted the proportions much different, less cartoony, smaller head etc. It still is very much like Ken's animation and I feel I mainly contributed effects, animating his coat and sleaves flapping in the wind, the rope and the flies. I think I did the first bits of gravel that he kicks of and Lynette Charters animated the rest. These scenes usually also required some retiming and respacing. The first 2 days I spent drawing the BG layout. Before I started there was only a simple outline to indicate where the mountain was. Dick gave me some of Errol's BGs as reference for how he wanted the hands drawn. The drawing for the Ruby Idol he did himself. I think he did that for all the other scenes with the Ruby Idol as well. It's a caricature of actor Sydney Greenstreet.
I always enjoyed it when I was asked to draw my own layouts, a privilege really. Dick liked us to be involved in as many aspects of our scenes as possible, encouraging us to make them our own and feel responsible for them. For most scenes he liked to do several key clean-ups to keep the style consistent and the drawings on model. It also gave each scene his personal flavor, in the way that a Milt Kahl scene for example is recognizable by his drawing style. Dicks drawing choices were pretty unique and he always came up with the nicest shapes. Maybe this resulted sometimes in a reduced sense of ownership for us and the drawing of our own layouts was intended to make up a little for this. I didn't draw any of the bushes by the way. I think that was all Inga Davelouse who painted the BGs for this sequence.
When I started this scene I had been averaging 8 feet a week for a few months, which usually put me pretty high on the "footage chart". This was a board that Ian Cook the production coordinator kept up to date. It showed how much footage was counted every week for each animator. Counted meant footage that was reported as done in the weekly report to Warner Brothers. In the case of this scene for example half of the scene was counted already on the first day (Friday) I started animating it. These decisions were usually made by Dick in the (click:) ROUTE SHEET MEETING.
In addition to fulfilling his directorial duties Dick also was the studio's most productive animator. Mostly it was him or Neil at the top of the footage chart. At route sheet meetings Dick often made a big deal out of announcing the "footage king" for the week. On the few occasions when I had that honor I felt a mixture of pleasure and embarrassment. Embarrassment because I felt that the scenes I worked on were so much easier to do than many of the ones that other animators worked on and it felt a bit manipulative and not really fair. However I worked hard to maintain my footage average, between 60 and 77 hours per week.
Reading what I just wrote I would have to add that what motivated me even more to work hard was the desire to get as many good scenes with the Thief as possible before work on the film would be completed.

More to come...

The other glorious brochure - part 2

Finally weekend again and I just can feel it! The aficionados of "The Thief and the Cobbler" want pictures and not words.

So here is the other half of last weeks blog - pages 10-18. Little note of interest: As Holger posted in his comment to last weeks blog, there is also a coversheet with the title "The Thief and the Cobbler". And as you see here just below, that title was not so skillfully taped over with the words "Once" inside the brochure.

The other glorious Brochure - Part 1

This high-gloss brochure must have been printed around 1984, at least that is what the copyright says and given that it sports a 1988 release date, this seems somewhat right.
Dick had a few leftover brochures in Royal Colledge Street 138 and recognising a true fan of his work, it wasn't hard to persuade him to let me have one.
Front and back are covered by an extra clear sheet of cel and between those are 18 pages in luxurious A 3 color print with photos, credits and stills.

The first 9 pages are presented this week, with the last 9 pages to follow in 7 days. Enjoy!

an outward and visible reality.... or The Crew Jacket

Picture this... London, 1991 , a place bustling with Feature and commercial animation ( I know, hard to picture, but try)
Amblimation has a studio in Acton, Disney is at Kings Cross and Henson is busy on several projects. And we see something we hadn't seen before... crew jackets. We all felt deeply proud to be working on ' Once ' , as it was called then and really wanted to join the throngs of artists wearing their pride on their sleeves...or better yet, on their back. Disney had jackets, Henson had jackets.. but we had a very limited budget and crew jackets were out of the question... until they weren't. Dick decided one day that not only would we get jackets as well, but ours would be the best of them all.
Lacking any official merchandize, I had taken to painting t-shirts with whatever took my fancy...and so I made a t-shirt using the Once logo and one of the images from the Thief brochure.( fashion maven I wasn't).

Caricature by T. Dan Hoffstedt

Dick saw me wearing the t-shirt one day and, in his no nonsense way, asked me to strip off, so he could xerox it... which I dutifully did. Thankfully that was before the middle age spread set in.
By that time, the film had already been re-titled as The Thief and the Cobbler, so Dick took my T- shirt design ( which, let's face it, was just his designs reused anyway ) and adapted them to the new title logo... a crew jacket was born!


We were ecstatic when the finished jackets were finally delivered, and Dick hadn't promised too much. The stitching was very intricate and on the front , for all to see, was a badge of honour we had all dreamed of from the time we fell in love with our chosen profession :

Gort or How I almost ended up in deep Sh&%#

Picture this... Camden 1990 or there abouts.Dick comes to me with a folder in his hand, saying: Here's a scene by Art Babbit, it's not very good, can you make it better? In my mind I imitated Munchs Scream and ran the other way, but I blushed, as usual and tried to look confident. The scene was of a tall servant, who had to smack his huge hands together like cymbals. Dick had done a new design since Art worked on it and he explained to me how to achieve the decelerating stagger for the hands. I was very green as an animator and totally terrified, but set to work.
Testing the scene in the evening, I knew it was not up to scratch, but had a pretty good idea where I went wrong. So I decided to fix it the next day. Which I did, and I showed it to Dick, who liked it, thankfully. What i didn't know, was that he took my tape that evening and looked at the miserable first take and apparently had a fit, ready to take it off me. I'm glad I didn't know about this when I fixed the scene, or I''d have been too mortified.After that I animated the little guy with the gong in the next scene, referencing Alex Williams take on him in an earlier scene.
And by the way, I still blush when I have to show a scene. Some things don't change.

The City

Yesterday my roommate at work was watching the 1982 Thames documentary. Towards the end there is this scene where Dick and Roy posed themselves in front of Roy's gigantic drawing of the city. You can see that it would take up an entire wall. Roy did this and a lot of his other work for the Thief after hours and on weekends, on top of the work he did during the day on commercials or title sequences.


I found this photo of the drawing on Michael Sporn's blog:This drawing was used as a map to help them figure out the geography of the film's story. It was also used as a style guide for the backgrounds and parts of it where copied into BGs that made it into the film, the scene "Mouth to Mountain" for example, that we've mentioned in earlier posts.

Carl Gover, Part 2

In the meantime, after a lot of disappointments chasing finance for “The Thief”, I was contacted one day by an Arab guy for whom I’d produced a film title sequence. Having seen some spectacular Islamic style inspirational paintings by Errol le Cain in my office – he introduced me to Prince Mohammed Faisal of Saudi Arabia. His Highness appeared very interested in promoting Islamic culture, especially with moral tales, so I encouraged him further to meet with Dick. This would seem to be the opportunity of a lifetime – without any obvious strings attached. A meeting was arranged in Geneva – and with Dick on his best behaviour The Prince agreed to provide all the finance. I requested a ‘honeymoon’ period whereby the Studio would first receive a substantial proportion of the budget to finish up a 10 minute section. My main reason for requesting this was to test the forthcoming relationship with our sponsor to see whether there was any danger of any unwanted interference that usually develops from someone providing such a large sum of money. The Prince had not even read the script – and had no idea which section would be selected for the 10 minute test - but I believe that he was expecting to see animation based upon the Errol le Cain inspirational paintings which I’d shown him at previous meetings.

After the Geneva meeting it took a very long time to draw up a satisfactory contract due to our respective lawyers wishing to cover so many issues. The Prince had instructed Farrer & Co. as his lawyers (incidentally, they are also our Queen’s) and after many months of wrangling I was advised that the Prince was becoming very frustrated and would I be prepared to deal directly with his lawyer on a one to one basis. Apparently, he trusted me totally and felt that I would always act completely fairly with any deal with him. From then on the contract was quickly prepared – but one issue became a problem. It was always agreed that we would split all the profits from the film’s distribution, right down the middle – but as a gesture of goodwill I had verbally promised the Prince that he could have sole Middle Eastern rights. Unfortunately, this was misinterpreted as all Islamic rights – which I couldn’t agree to as it involved 44 countries worldwide. At the eleventh hour, just prior to me flying to Paris to finally meet with the Prince at his splendid house on the island just by the Notre Dames, I was told that by not agreeing this could jeopardise the signing of the contract. Anyway, I sat with the Prince in his glorious drawing room going over the various amendments in the 30 page contract – and everything was going beautifully until we came to the list of countries specified to be under his control. I could feel the anger building when he saw that I had deleted all those geographically not part of the Middle East. A really long silence followed – and I feared that this could be the end of the road. Then I remembered from previous conversations that he had a particular affinity with Pakistan and had invested a great deal of money there in educational programmes etc.. I broke the silence eventually by agreeing that I would consent only to Pakistan being added to the list. This did the trick - as his hand came up to meet mine and we shook hands. He immediately signed the contract - which allowed us both to withdraw after the ‘honeymoon’ period should either of us for any reason decide not to go ahead. The Prince would be entitled to 5% of the net profits in return for his contribution should this happen. Despite having more than enough impressive material already thoroughly line-tested and ready to go into production, Dick chose the immensely complex and costly War Machine sequence for this crucial test period.

Then, surprisingly true to form, at the end of the agreed 44 week completion schedule, Dick and Roy Naisbitt and crew were still re-animating. In my opinion this was grossly irresponsible when so much rested on the trust that I’d personally established with the Prince. As a consequence, the money was soon exhausted – and the schedule extended beyond reason. Dick kept making excuses and pleaded for me to get more time – which I did of course. But the Prince’s accountants became more and more concerned despite the Studio secretly subsidising the finishing by producing an even greater volume of commercials made possible by using the best freelancers in town.
Eventually, on completion the Prince came to London with his family (plus entourage) to view the ‘masterpiece’. I’m sure he was expecting to see some evidence of Islamic art in the animation but instead he was well and truly entertained by an awe inspiring F/X heavy action sequence – although by this time I realised that the damage had already been done. Very reluctantly I decided that I’d had enough. Dick was obviously incapable of ever finishing anything on time and on budget. So, the following day I announced that I wanted to leave – and then came the bombshell. A letter from the Prince’s lawyers withdrawing from the deal. The honeymoon was over! Another golden opportunity lost. Despite Dick’s pleading, I left the studio after a most extraordinary 10 year period of my life which I wouldn’t have missed for the world. Not only was it a unique education in human psychology – I’d also got to work alongside a real genius - and contribute towards a piece of animation history.

There are so many tales to tell – I could write a book about those truly memorable years.

Carl Gover
London 28th January 2008